diff --git a/ldpd/lde.c b/ldpd/lde.c
index 8fa74d1c3d..02dcec750b 100644
--- a/ldpd/lde.c
+++ b/ldpd/lde.c
@@ -134,6 +134,8 @@ lde(void)
 	log_procname = log_procnames[PROC_LDE_ENGINE];
 
 	master = frr_init();
+	/* no frr_config_fork() here, allow frr_pthread to create threads */
+	frr_is_after_fork = true;
 
 	/* setup signal handler */
 	signal_init(master, array_size(lde_signals), lde_signals);
diff --git a/ldpd/ldpe.c b/ldpd/ldpe.c
index d09eb2fa33..428d2ab7b4 100644
--- a/ldpd/ldpe.c
+++ b/ldpd/ldpe.c
@@ -111,6 +111,8 @@ ldpe(void)
 	log_procname = log_procnames[ldpd_process];
 
 	master = frr_init();
+	/* no frr_config_fork() here, allow frr_pthread to create threads */
+	frr_is_after_fork = true;
 
 	/* setup signal handler */
 	signal_init(master, array_size(ldpe_signals), ldpe_signals);
diff --git a/lib/frr_pthread.c b/lib/frr_pthread.c
index 03359f4d18..898fe98aad 100644
--- a/lib/frr_pthread.c
+++ b/lib/frr_pthread.c
@@ -28,6 +28,7 @@
 #include "memory.h"
 #include "linklist.h"
 #include "zlog.h"
+#include "libfrr.h"
 #include "libfrr_trace.h"
 
 DEFINE_MTYPE_STATIC(LIB, FRR_PTHREAD, "FRR POSIX Thread");
@@ -162,6 +163,8 @@ int frr_pthread_run(struct frr_pthread *fpt, const pthread_attr_t *attr)
 	int ret;
 	sigset_t oldsigs, blocksigs;
 
+	assert(frr_is_after_fork || !"trying to start thread before fork()");
+
 	/* Ensure we never handle signals on a background thread by blocking
 	 * everything here (new thread inherits signal mask)
 	 */
diff --git a/lib/libfrr.c b/lib/libfrr.c
index c8f2540db5..970e82c064 100644
--- a/lib/libfrr.c
+++ b/lib/libfrr.c
@@ -46,7 +46,8 @@
 #include "frrscript.h"
 
 DEFINE_HOOK(frr_late_init, (struct thread_master * tm), (tm));
-DEFINE_HOOK(frr_very_late_init, (struct thread_master * tm), (tm));
+DEFINE_HOOK(frr_config_pre, (struct thread_master * tm), (tm));
+DEFINE_HOOK(frr_config_post, (struct thread_master * tm), (tm));
 DEFINE_KOOH(frr_early_fini, (), ());
 DEFINE_KOOH(frr_fini, (), ());
 
@@ -69,6 +70,8 @@ static char dbfile_default[512];
 #endif
 static char vtypath_default[512];
 
+/* cleared in frr_preinit(), then re-set after daemonizing */
+bool frr_is_after_fork = true;
 bool debug_memstats_at_exit = false;
 static bool nodetach_term, nodetach_daemon;
 static uint64_t startup_fds;
@@ -307,6 +310,7 @@ void frr_init_vtydir(void)
 void frr_preinit(struct frr_daemon_info *daemon, int argc, char **argv)
 {
 	di = daemon;
+	frr_is_after_fork = false;
 
 	/* basename(), opencoded. */
 	char *p = strrchr(argv[0], '/');
@@ -931,6 +935,8 @@ static void frr_daemonize(void)
  */
 static int frr_config_read_in(struct thread *t)
 {
+	hook_call(frr_config_pre, master);
+
 	if (!vty_read_config(vty_shared_candidate_config, di->config_file,
 			     config_default)
 	    && di->backup_config_file) {
@@ -964,7 +970,7 @@ static int frr_config_read_in(struct thread *t)
 				__func__, nb_err_name(ret), errmsg);
 	}
 
-	hook_call(frr_very_late_init, master);
+	hook_call(frr_config_post, master);
 
 	return 0;
 }
@@ -987,6 +993,8 @@ void frr_config_fork(void)
 	if (di->daemon_mode || di->terminal)
 		frr_daemonize();
 
+	frr_is_after_fork = true;
+
 	if (!di->pid_file)
 		di->pid_file = pidfile_default;
 	pid_output(di->pid_file);
diff --git a/lib/libfrr.h b/lib/libfrr.h
index db0f364986..3dc5d7af81 100644
--- a/lib/libfrr.h
+++ b/lib/libfrr.h
@@ -141,8 +141,12 @@ extern enum frr_cli_mode frr_get_cli_mode(void);
 extern uint32_t frr_get_fd_limit(void);
 extern bool frr_is_startup_fd(int fd);
 
+/* call order of these hooks is as ordered here */
 DECLARE_HOOK(frr_late_init, (struct thread_master * tm), (tm));
-DECLARE_HOOK(frr_very_late_init, (struct thread_master * tm), (tm));
+/* fork() happens between late_init and config_pre */
+DECLARE_HOOK(frr_config_pre, (struct thread_master * tm), (tm));
+DECLARE_HOOK(frr_config_post, (struct thread_master * tm), (tm));
+
 extern void frr_config_fork(void);
 
 extern void frr_run(struct thread_master *master);
@@ -168,6 +172,8 @@ extern const char frr_scriptdir[];
 
 extern char frr_protoname[];
 extern char frr_protonameinst[];
+/* always set in the spot where we *would* fork even if we don't do so */
+extern bool frr_is_after_fork;
 
 extern bool debug_memstats_at_exit;
 
diff --git a/lib/northbound_sysrepo.c b/lib/northbound_sysrepo.c
index fc1af092d0..63fd40f8d3 100644
--- a/lib/northbound_sysrepo.c
+++ b/lib/northbound_sysrepo.c
@@ -736,7 +736,7 @@ static int frr_sr_finish(void)
 	return 0;
 }
 
-static int frr_sr_module_very_late_init(struct thread_master *tm)
+static int frr_sr_module_config_loaded(struct thread_master *tm)
 {
 	master = tm;
 
@@ -761,7 +761,7 @@ static int frr_sr_module_late_init(struct thread_master *tm)
 static int frr_sr_module_init(void)
 {
 	hook_register(frr_late_init, frr_sr_module_late_init);
-	hook_register(frr_very_late_init, frr_sr_module_very_late_init);
+	hook_register(frr_config_post, frr_sr_module_config_loaded);
 
 	return 0;
 }
diff --git a/pathd/path_pcep.c b/pathd/path_pcep.c
index 1c650737b2..ad24c2eb02 100644
--- a/pathd/path_pcep.c
+++ b/pathd/path_pcep.c
@@ -264,7 +264,11 @@ int pathd_candidate_removed_handler(struct srte_candidate *candidate)
 
 /* ------------ Module Functions ------------ */
 
-int pcep_module_late_init(struct thread_master *tm)
+/* this creates threads, therefore must run after fork().  but it must also
+ * run before config load, so the CLI commands don't try to touch things that
+ * aren't set up yet...
+ */
+static int pcep_module_config_pre(struct thread_master *tm)
 {
 	assert(pcep_g->fpt == NULL);
 	assert(pcep_g->master == NULL);
@@ -280,10 +284,16 @@ int pcep_module_late_init(struct thread_master *tm)
 	pcep_g->master = tm;
 	pcep_g->fpt = fpt;
 
+	return 0;
+}
+
+static int pcep_module_late_init(struct thread_master *tm)
+{
 	hook_register(pathd_candidate_created, pathd_candidate_created_handler);
 	hook_register(pathd_candidate_updated, pathd_candidate_updated_handler);
 	hook_register(pathd_candidate_removed, pathd_candidate_removed_handler);
 
+	hook_register(frr_config_pre, pcep_module_config_pre);
 	hook_register(frr_fini, pcep_module_finish);
 
 	pcep_cli_init();